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Bigwater Fishing with Ross Robertson
Bigwater Fishing with Ross Robertson

Episode 47 · 4 months ago

Lee Kjos | Outdoors Photographer And Brand Marketer

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Lee Kjos is the proprietor of Kjos Outdoors, a full-service photography and branding company behind major campaigns for Benelli, Cabela’s, Filson, Polaris, Under Armour and the like. Lee has worked with some of the biggest campiagns for the leading outdoor brands. He's also an avid outdoorsman.

Producer Dude, here we are again, another big water podcast. I'm getting stopped at the boat launches. People are asking who's on next. Where's producer do that? They're liking niece. I was gonna say they when he said they're asking, I was gonna ask, are they asking about me? Where am I? One guy asked again, was he late? That's larious. It is, I swear. I swear some guy, Dude. But Um, so we have Lee shows. So a lot of people may not know who Lee is, but they know who lee is. You know what I mean? It's kind of like, producer Dude, even though I've brought you in the front, I'm trying to drag you in front of the camera, quite literally at times, like you're the man behind the scenes that making things happen. And that's kind of what Lee has done with major campaigns like super responsible, even though I don't know how much we're gonna be able to pull out of him because he's so humbable. But yet he's if somebody didn't have to be it would definitely be Lee. You know, with under arm, or Philson, Um, waterfowl, just about anything with waterfowl. P will know this guy he's really a all around just not photographer like we've had nathaniel Welchon before, but he's a branding guy, like he comes up with logos and the whole deal and really kind of a fascinating guy. I call him the dose Akis Guy when we're privately around each other because he is kind of that fascinating type thing. He's got long haired Hippie Dude, you know, and Um, I don't know how to describe Lee, and I think that's because, like, there's not many people to compare him with. That's why I call him the DOSAKI's guy. Yeah, his photography, uh, just as incredible. It's incredible stuff. I mean there's a lot of feeling behind it and you're just looking at it and you you feel like you're there and it's in motion and everything is right in front of you. And I think you know, and when he translates that two brands just probably brings them alive. Yeah, it's it's funny because maybe he maybe can give you some tips too, because I've witched about your photography before. You are you're always, you're always on me tips. Get Better, get better, or you're fired. You you're every time. I mean, I don't know what you would do if I wasn't there. Me Either. Me Either. Honestly, it's it's just the dysfunctional marriage that works. People always ask and I said it's just the sunctual marriage. What isn't anymore? We're like we're like married with children. Were like Al Bundy and peg. I think country Steve Is our child, right. Would he be David Fostino? He would like, he would like Kelly, but he would be David Fostino. He would look at he would look at Kelly on Instagram, country Kelly. Yeah, let's bring Lee in, because I'm not sure why I even agreed to do this. So we don't want to keep him waiting too long. But the man Lee chose himself kind of outdoor photographer. Extraordinary, but man that the travels that this guy has done. You know, that's the thing about the outdoor photographers and anybody that likes this habbody to go back and check out that Nathaniel Welch one. I think that like the travels, or even like the the Steve Pollock one. You know, some of the travels these guys have done are just there's just amazing. Really welcome to the big water podcast. We have Lee chose with us that I even think your name properly for one. Yeah, you can. You can teach the dumb dug new tricks. I want to thank you for giving us your time. You're kind of like people like, maybe they're not watching this, you're kind of like to me, you're like the Doseki Guy. You've got that interesting look, like I want to meet you, even if they don't know that you're in the outdoor industry, are they not? As I look at the American flag, people are watching the video. This is a good encouragement to watch their youtube portion of it, because we've got we have an American flag barn background and about I don't know, about fifteen firearms leaning up against there. I don't know and I don't know enough right so tell tell me a little bit. I mean, you know, I met you through some some projects, and it's just kind of funny how, I think, a lot of mutual people come together, you know what I mean. And and I knew about your stuff, not that I know your whole story. That's why I'm kind of excited to do this, but, um, we kind of had a mutual respect for each other doing a a different line of work in the outdoor industry. But Um, and we were kind of jointly possibly working on another project, which will leave that one alone. But Um, and here we are run into the Bass Master's classic, and I'm likely. Why do I? Why have you? Have you not been on my podcast yet? And thank God you are. You are kind enough to join us. So tell me how how we got there a little bit. I mean, I know you can save like the young, young stuff. I mean because I think everybody that's on here does this stuff, you know, whether it's a family member or something, they're they're into the outdoors. Maybe it's more hunting or fishing or shooting. But Um, the thing that I think a lot of people are intrigued with is how do you make that turn? Like I get this, you know, especially like the Bass Master's classic. All the young kids run around there, like how do I do this for a job like you know, I don't want to work at, you know, accounting firm, but tell me the early years on, you know, how you made that turn, because for those that don't know, and then I'm gonna shut up here, you're like a world renowned outdoor photographer and I don't know that's the proper he is...

...saying it or what you're gonna call it, but I don't know about that. But I don't know about the world renowned part. I am an outdoor photographer and, Um, I mean it's yeah, it's been like just an incredible, like journey, great life. I mean, he couldn't ask for anything. He couldn't ask for anything better. I mean the only like somebody asked me one time, is if you didn't do this, is there something else you'd rather be doing than this? And I'm like, well, I mean I would love to ban the front man in a fucking rock band back in the seventies, but I don't know how long. I don't know the longevity of that, you know. So like being a being an outdoor location photographer that got to work with WHO I got to work with during like a big run up to this, you know, uh no, you couldn't ask for anything cooler. It's like the best job ever. So so let's talk about that. Like, I mean, how do you it into just shooting stuff, because there's always a story, there's always somebody that comes along or something that kind of presents itself and you know, maybe it's a little bit of luck. Maybe it's just doing the right thing at the right time. You have to have an eye for it. Yeah, I mean that. I think that kind of goes without maybe without saying, but I think within that look or your eye, Um, I tell people that, I would say the biggest part. Okay, let's say the three of us, let's say the three of us were out on location and each one of us had a camera, right, and you had a client's needed work done or whatever. Maybe not even client work. It's just shooting for fun. I think the big difference is how the artist sees it right. So for me it's like strictly about what I see and how I look at it and then how am I going to capture it right? So if I stay quiet enough in my head, usually that stuff comes to me right and I see it and it's like wow, is that of her cooler? Is that of her pretty or you know. I mean, you know, like even when I met you, I can't remember which trip it was, but when I met you we were on this trip and it was horrible. The weather was awful. I mean it was just tough. Well, Oh, you should see it here today. I mean it's just nasty here right now. But Um, I even find beauty in that. Honestly, that's probably some of the better shots right when it's all I think so. And then there was this, you know, one of these like just major donkey belly female walleyes out there and they're just they're just UN there, unreal what they look like. You know how cool they are. And then you know everything. You know like the background, and then, I don't know, Dude, you just I see things different. I do. I see it different. That's all they do. But even before that again, because you know, I was a boy. Well, I mean like, I mean, how old were you when you're like hey, this I'm making a job? Like was there? You were doing some other regular role job and you're like you started shooting stuff. Or How do you get that? When do you find that this is my passion or this is gonna be a real deal job? But those are two different those are two different things. When I found my passion, I'll bet I was eight years old. Right by the time I was a fourteen year old, I had worked hard enough to where I earned enough money to where I bought my first professional camera, my first pro gear right I was fourteen years old, right. So that's one thing. I always had the passion. The work part of it really didn't come as a freelance guy until I turned forty, and I'm sixty two right now. That being said, I did a lot of this work before I was full time on my own. I've never not done art and photography. Never. That's all I've ever done. That's all I've ever done for a job. Ever. Don't you think, though, I mean honestly, was what I do or some of our mutual friends? We're all doing the different thing. I mean you can name off to some people that were at that table when when me and you met. Don't you just think it's about having big balls, though? Because a lot of people have. I mean I know some people that have, like some of the best fishermen I know fish on the weekends, like if they fished every day like I do, like they would be really good. And you could say that what's even some people I know with some of the other the more artsy stuff, and it's just but you've got to have kind of the say to this is what I'm going to do, right. Yeah, well, Um, I don't. I really never think thought or had...

...a plan. I never really thought of anything. But now, years later, when you ask me questions like that, then I get to look back in retrospect and I think one thing, Um, I feel if you want to talk about balls, sounds like a good topic. Well, I mean big balls. I mean, does it take that to do this to yeah, for sure, for sure it does. I mean, I don't call it that, but does it take that? But let's let's not be let's be clear here about one thing. That was fearful at times. I mean it's you don't have I mean one of the risk is on you, all right, and you have a family, you have three little kids. Um, there were times where there was no money in the in the bank, in none, zero. But I always knew that we were going to be okay or we were gonna make it. My wife and I knew that, Um, and so did she, and never there was never any any animosity or fight, fight there. I mean she knew it. Um, might take a little while, you know what I mean, to start work, before you start getting paid and all this, but but I knew, I knew it was gonna happen. So, I mean hard times, you know, some hard stretches in there. But NAH, I don't know what I'd call it. Don't you think that, though? Don't you think you have to have that? Well, you know, I saw this thing. You know, remember Kobe Bryant, right, Kobe killer, athlete, right, just like killer, and he said this thing one time. I can't remember how we said with something like this. He goes, I get up at three, I do this from three to four and from four to six he works on some basketball thing in the gym and he takes a break after those two hours and he eats breakfast and he or eats more food or done I don't remember what it was, did something and then from seven to eight, seven to nine, he did this and then he took a break and from tend to two, tend to two, he worked on this in the gym and then he took a break and he did something and then he went from three to whenever he quit that night, you know, and then he goes and then he did that every day. From them I think he said that. I think he's in his one of these interviews. He said he was like thirteen or fourteen maybe, like I told you, like the age I was when I bought a pro camera and if you do that, you know it's not such a big deal for a month or a year or whatever. But when you add that up over the course of a lifetime and then you back up forty or fifty years of that right, there's no way they can catch up to you. They can't, they don't, they cannot work you. They don't work like you do. Well, I mean I think, I mean, I think there's a common denominator, and I'm not saying it great, don't don't get me wrong, but I think there's a I think there's a common denominator in greatness that people have. You cannot first of all, they're absurdly talented. Okay that they have that, but there's lots absurdly talented people that don't have a work ethic to go on online with it. But when you bust your ass and you work like that, there's no way that you can be stopped. I mean you just you can't. I would agree, whether you're doing what you're doing. On what I'm doing, I mean some of the professional athlete clients that I have as guide clients. I mean even at the point in their careers where they can phone it in, like these guys are insane. Yeah, producer Doo will back me on this one. We had marshal Yonder, who's, I think, like a twelve time pro bowl or something crazy, and he's a guide client and and that guy would not eat ice cream. Dude, that was like six, three fif he wouldn't eat ice cream in the offseason because he's like boss, I don't he literally said boss, I don't get in my mind. I don't even think about that. I don't drink pop. He's like, I gotta take care of this and it's such a big dude, you don't think about it. He was. He's one of the most disciplined people I've ever met in my life and he's also, coincidentally, one of the top rated offensive linement of all time. And it doesn't matter what you do, you know, it's, it's, it's, but you've got to have the passion for it. So I don't think people like that have the ability to mail it in. I mean that's a good that's a good term that you used. You know, I regardless in my whole career working whoever I worked for, whether they had money or a little bit some or a ship tone right, it didn't matter. You'RE gonna get, you're gonna get chose, you're gonna get the same thing. Dude. I can only do it one way, another, one another, one, kind of like that Kobe thing I was watching. You guys might dig this Eddie Van Halen. Well, you know,...

I mean you know how. You know how like unbelievably talented he was. Right. Okay, so there's this Smithsonian did this piece on him. It's a video and ladies interviewing him. It's really cool, just a really cool setting, way chill, and it was called like what it means to be an American or something like that. You you could google it. That your your audience. It's just it's unreal how good it is. And she asked him if he was formally trained and playing a guitar and he's like, he kind of busted out laughing and he goes no, there was no he goes there's there was no book, he said, so I wrote my own. And then he said if I would have been formally trained, you wouldn't have got what I do right. So that apply to your camera? I think so. I totally think that, like you can on that, that you can only be as good as someone if I can only what they tell you. I'm not plagiaristic. I don't look at other people. I look at other people's work and every once in a while I see something really cool that they shot and I'll reach out to him through a text message or a direct message on the instagram and I'll say, dude, that's awesome, right, that was good shot, man, way good. Right. I mean, I love good work. I don't care where it comes from, right, I just don't. I don't think there's a lot of it, but I love it when I see it. But when when you ask an artist, and first of all an artist has to be original. It can't be any plagiarism involved. They can't be. Well, I can do that too. No, no, no, well, you gotta do. You know why? Let me rupt you, because I just thought this. So because of back when you were doing things, let's say, it's like field and streamer dressing in door light from the back there. You know, they had ten, eleven, maybe twelve issues or something back in the day. Right now we don't. You know, I write for those guys. You know I'm on their their digital program or whatever. Now we've got eight million like they're putting out ten, twelve pieces of content a day, you know, on on facebook or on instagram or whatever, on the website. And like I had a sponsor who, when I was asking him, you know what, you what he wants, and he goes, give me the Figgy, baby, give me the Figgy, and I'm like, what's that? He's like, good enough. And and the thing is is, because they're pumping out such massive amounts, I imagine that makes a guy like you cringe. No, I don't do it. I mean, are you a dying breed because of that? I I hope not. I hope not. But trying to to add to your kind of add to what you were just saying there, because I do believe what you just said there. You go back to when I was a kid and there were only a handful. Well, there was ABC, NBC and CBS on TV for Network TV, right. And then years later, when you started getting into cable in all these cable outlets, and then this unbelievable amount of digital content and digital outlets. You have to Ted Turner when he came out with a very like when he wasn't he the first one that came out in the twenty four hour news network. I think he was. I think it was. I think so you could back check that one, but something like that. And the point is, where's all the content going to come from? There's only so many stories. So in my opinion, what happened is you have a complete delusion of the truth or what's out there, and then you start getting into opinion right when we all know what opinions are, and I just think that it doesn't even matter anymore if it's truth. It just matters if it what did you call it? You had an acronym. Yeah, yeah, well, I mean it just it just to me it's like there's so much garbage out there and untruth that you I mean it's almost hard to find something good to read or follow or watch. It's really hard. Well, and I think so to back it up what I was talking about, I think there's two different things going on there. It's it's the same thing that ever, so let me let me clarify what I was kind of saying. So, like when we're putting pictures out for social media or whatever, like I'll send something, I mean some of them, because maybe a client that takes and then he texts us to the resolution, ship lighting and all that, but it's a big gas fish. So, like you first probably the big gas fish is the is...

...the whatever. But then you also look at and you're like, man, did this guy, this guy jacked this photo of I would I could have done this, that and or whatever. But then, on a totally separate aspect of that, I think why me and you kind of hit off again? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you told me you're like, Hey, I got mad respect because you do legit shit. As far as like my right, yeah, I wasn't, you know, and I turned down some opportunities, as you know, that would have paid quite a bit of money, because I was like I just I wasn't in it, like I didn't leave in it, and you know, and and it's easy to say that and people go, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna turn down x number now, but they don't because they buy some crap or and I think that's kind of the second half of this. And, like you said, like I read the same thing you do, me and you know a lot of the same people and you read some of these things and you're like, dude, this guy's feelish ship like this is feel as ship. So I think you've got two things going on. It's like it's some of the stuff that we put out, you can because you're the mass volume we're doing. It's not until your level, let's say, of a of a magazine or something like, you see behind you. But then the same point there's also that guy you're talking to, and maybe it's a fishing guide or whatever, and you're just like man, this guy, he's he's not legit. Like there's two different things going on there. Right, yeah, that's what's going on. But, like I said, that's why, I mean you kind of hit off because they're like, all right, I'm a I'm a younger guy, I got a couple of decades behind you, but I'm kind of old school in that aspect. I don't know. So so tell me some like some of the projects, I mean, rather than the ones that put you on the map or the ones that you know. I mean, I know like I looked like Benelli. I think it was Philson under armour. I mean what what are the ones that maybe cemented you? Are the ones you look at and you're like, I'm damn proud of that or that. People may know you from. But they say, I think a lot of people know your stuff but they just don't know you because you're always kind of you don't want to say you're not like a screaming in front of the camera guy. I think. I think the body of Benelli work over the years is like really good. I think maybe that. Yeah, there's parts you all, there's parts of other I mean, I did like I like this. I like the sport dog work that I've done for I don't know. I Bet I've been doing their work for as long as Benelli, which is probably like seventeen, seventeen years or so. So I'd say Ben Ellis Sport Dog I liked. I really liked. I'd still like Riga and right. That's Matthew and Heather Cagel, Great Friends of mine. Um, love helping like small American family business like that from almost from ground up to where they are now. I think that's really cool to do that. Um, certainly the under armour work back in the day when they were getting rolling in the outdoor, in the outdoor space. That was fun. But I mean I mean the most fun I've ever had. That is that is boss shot shells. That's that's right, that's because that's that's that's the recent reason. Well, it's also it's well, it's also the culmination of all of my like my body of work in my life. It's like all coming together right there. That's that's interesting. But because I think it's about my fishing like that too, or you wouldn't have been ready for this ten or fifteen years ago. Right now it's like, okay, everything's whether it's relationships or skills or just mentally, you know what I mean, all the above. Exactly right, YEP, exactly. So on these things, I think, like the one thing that I think. I know you're a straight shooter, but sometimes we all kind of back off the real reality because nobody wants to hear it. But producer dude maybe screaming at me because I'm gonna give him shit about this. All the time, where there's a lot of guys that can shoot, like even when we had a guy on who's primarily a portrait photographer, a whole different deal. I've had guys that are not bad tripod guys, because, you know, I've shot with a lot of guys through the years. A lot of the companies I work with send these guys out, but when you get in a boat and it's nasty and, like you said, when it's flat, calling the bluebird like, it doesn't really make the story. Yeah, you get some cool magazine shots or whatever, but when you got some ship and you've got snow landing on and you've got boats standing up in the air like to me, that's when you find out who's really not only got the eye, but who can deal with the ship, because there's just a lot of guys that are I think they're good photographers, I think they have a good eye, but I don't think that they're really into it. Like these guys are not hunting and fishing when they're not working, you know what I mean? They do. They're not into it like they're. They're not. They're not into it, and you've got to have those guys and I think it's a thin group of people that are hardcore into it that you know, like you said, they're duck hunting themselves, right, they own a duck boat, they're doing at days a year and then they're out there and that that allows you to see it differently, don't...

...you think? Because you're on well, for sure, it's hunting and fishing is a passion sport, okay. It's not like we're trying to market aspurn or toilet paper, where everybody gets it right. I mean, you get what a headache is, right, we all get that. So if you're the shooter on location and you don't get, you don't understand what you're you know, the sport or whatever you're doing, you can't art direct it right. And I am an art director, right, so I don't go out on location and let things just happen Willy Nilly. I don't do that. Like when I'm on location, it's my set. I take over, not even the client, I take over, right. That's how that's how you're gonna get the best of what I can do. You can't put me on location because you like work that you've seen, that I've done, and handcuffed me and tell me to do it this way. You Ain't gonna get it, Dude. You know, like like the under armour shoot, for example, like I know a lot of guys in the industry that reference you with the under armour stuff. I shouldn't say shoot, it's the whole project that you so so tell these tell the people out there that don't know this. I mean, because I don't so that most people don't like. What exactly when this whole development of underarmer was your role and and and how you you know, kind of early on, early on, when they just started to get into the outdoors. Um, they had some early work that maybe didn't look very authentic. That might be an easy like the spinning it upside down, yeah, stuff like that. Yeah, or a bowl, an archery hunter that had a like a release around his wrist but was pulling the bowl back with his fingers. You know, stuff like that. Right, it's just but it happens a lot. Well, but you know, in all fairness, that's and this is fair, this is honest. Right. I mean that companies that are trying to grow, even as big as under armour was right. When you're not, when you're not in that space, you can't you don't know what to tell anybody. Right. There's that's why the importance of having somebody on location that totally knows what gets what's going on here. Right. So there was and and it believed me. It didn't take them long at all to figure out what they were doing. And I don't think I ever saw a company or a segment, a portion of a company, blow up as fast as they did. I've never, never seen anything like it. Not Yettie, not Sitka, not in their killer killer brands, Sam's awesome brands, right, powerhouse brands, but I never saw anything like like under over. Well, and I don't know, is that because they applied to the masses more m yeah, cool as ship too. Cool. So thinking besides, you know, taking pictures and stuff. What what are some of the other things with, even within that program that you were responsible for? Kind of campaigns, brand campaigns, language, Um, what it would look like at retail, what it would look like and window claims if somebody was walking down the street and looked in a store. Um, big brand stuff. I mean we're right, you're talking about mostly we're talking about my photography right now, but if you asked me what I really did or do in the industry, it's like big brand work. I was just gonna say it's more of like a p are slash. It's brand. It's just big. It's big brand work. Yeah, I mean those you said a couple of things pretty fast there, but they really are a big deal if you if you work in the stuff that I do you know that coming up with those those slogans and the different things like that's you can say that quick but that takes a lot to make him stick, to make the right one. And you really have to be in tune with Um Direction of the company and Narrative of the company, Um uh art direction, creative direction, get your head wrapped her own what they're trying to do and then, while you're working, you know, ask yourself, does this fit with what they said? You know, and so sorry, I just thought of this because I'm just thinking of my own self with fighting with companies and stuff is it's got to be way easier with Lee at fifty something versus Lee at thirty something with these companies, because at what point of these companies fight you tooth and...

...nail? You know, I'm like, your leash is longer. My leash is longer now. You're leash is longer now, but still, like some of these companies, I already know there's no way you're that. They haven't fought you. MM HMM. Maybe, maybe a little, but not not much, even even back twenty years ago, years ago, you must be even tougher to deal with on the on the on the water field than I am, then if you let if they allowed you to get by with that. I don't think I. No, I don't think so. I pretty much think most people I ever worked for in my life let me. They want what they wanted what I did. They understood that. I think that's pretty clear about that. That's gonna take a long time to get to that, though. Right well, I mean, you don't have to do it. You can tell him no, no, it's a powerful word. You know. I don't do it. I mean, I I mean. I've said that, you know, a bunch of times. Here's one thing that I always used to tell people. For certain companies are certain people, I am a really, really good fit because I can do a lot of things, I can help in a lot of areas. For some people I'm miserable and if I'm miserable, we might as well. We might as well cut that one right now, right because if if you let's, here's another this is gonna sound way egotistical. This might sound really awful. If you're better than I am, I'll listen to it. If you're not better than I am, this ain't gonna work unless you let me do it. So there was there were times, and I'm not saying it happened a lot, but there were times when I was asked to do things that were just playing not cool dude, wrong at this no, no, I'm not shooting that. No, we're not doing that that. That happened. But once you could explain it, taking something out. Well, I mean I hate and I've done that a lot too. I've had to manufacture stuff in the middle of July where it's just not possible, you know, and I've been and I've been flamed for it, right roasted for it, but I'm like well, Hey, I mean you can't hunt dunks at July, dude. So yeah, it's gonna some of them might look a little wonky at times, and it did, and you get roasted for it, but it's part of the deal. I mean that's part of being an advertising shooter, a location shooter. You gotta make things happen when you don't have it. You know that. Like producer dude, he always says dealing with the talent is you know, it can be difficult. I maybe twice in my career there was two people that were I could think of one that I know you've worked with. It I could just see not going over so well, but wouldn't talk about that one later. There was there was two, two of them that I can think of in particular. That where I mean I've never I'd never do it again, but most, most of the time, know who I am with there like way happy to have you there. They want you to make something Nice, you know. Yeah, a guy like me, if you show up, I'm like, I know what's gonna be created, so I'm gonna I'm gonna try to work with you as much as human right right now. That's that's typical more than so. You know, like a guy today in the boat I had some guys from out of town. We're fishing and he said to me's like man, you know, I was looking through your facebook or whatever, and he's like you've really gone a lot of places. And you know, I kind of back that off because now on, where I live on Lake Erie is the destination most places, you know, most people want to go, like when you're doing shoots for a Walleye or something like, this is the place right even small mouth and some salmon and trout arguably not that far away, and you know, I really like doing some of that red stuff. Um, you know, some of that saltwater stuff. But I've been nfortunate to be able to you know, Alaska and Europe and things like that. Has that played in, you know, to you think, maybe even when you got started? Or give us a little insight and some of the travel stuff. Already getting worn out by the travel at this point? No, I, no, no, quite honestly, when I'm home for like what seems like maybe a long period of time, I do. I look forward to getting out. I'm good on the road. Yeah, so, what are some of the best shoot locations or or or whatever? You places you'd go even if you weren't getting paid to shoot? Oh, I'd go to Alaska for anything, any reason. Um, remote, remote Canada, whether it's the prairie or the Bush. Uh M Hmmm. I Love Wyoming. UH, Montana. There's lots of cool little places.

Even within I'm seeing remote. Oh, I love remote. Oh Yeah, I love remote. I love no people. Oh Yeah, I love it. Ye Know, for sure. That's the only thing. I've been to Alaska a few times and that's the only thing about Alaska, though. It's like so many people you know. And again, if if you're on the tour train. You're on the tour train, but you know, like the key and I are some of these places where they're just, you know, they're stacked up, it's like a parking lot and people have this this rural, you know, untouched on tap deal, and it's like Alaska has become a tourist trap on so many places. Not that I'm not into that. No, I mean I didn't on the Arctic Circle Man, and it was like it was it was a culturing inuit villages and crazy stuff, and that was, yeah, was super cool. No, I I love remote I do. I love nature, I love wild things in wild places. That's that's really what I like. So, you know, fishing is kind of my idea, and a lot of people listen to this. I remember you were telling me you had a Gary Roach story, the old killer rotten roach. Awesome. Ever, anybody and everybody has a Gary Story and they're always all different. So, yeah, at me the story. Yeah, I was. I don't remember like what year it would have been. It's a long time ago and I believe the circuit back then was F l W. Oh, yeah, yeah, that's that's not that. I mean that's why I would go but it's got to be it could be a twenty years ago. It's more than that. Then it was something before that. CL M R C L. I don't know. It was a long time ago. I it was or thirty year. Thirty years ago? THIRDC. If it was thirty years ago, okay, let's go thirty years ago, because it was like the hooly brothers and Um Roach and blenders were still fishing and it was just anyway it was. It was on Malax Lake, Malax in Minnesota, and I don't believe it was over a memorial weekend, typically on memorial weekend. By then they were on the mud flats in the in the basin of the lake right and if you know anything about Malax, it really doesn't get deeper than thirty two ft anywhere ever a right. So when they hit those flats, then finding them out there was kind of tricky. But on a cold spring they would be in shallower like on the North End. They'd be on the sand, on the north end sand and you could find him up there. Well, anyway, they're running this tournament and I'm photographing it and my other came because we used to fish malax a lot and he came up with the boat and we were just having fun taking pictures and watching the way in and the whole deal, you know. Okay, so the fisherman came in one afternoon. What like five o'clock in the afternoon? Does that sound right? For a little, probably a little late. Three three, maybe three four or something like that. They came in and it was like hot and flat, Blue Blue Sky, just nasty, nasty for Walleye fishing, right, like you're like, at least, at least the way my brother and I fished, it's a good time for a picnic. So I'm taking pitch as a roach in his boat and I started talking to him and he's I don't know if you guys know him, but he's like was really, really fun to talk to and he and he was engaging. We had podcast by the way, he fell doing. We just didn't tell those podcasts. Right. Yeah, well, that makes sense. So he's we started talking about fishing, and this is before you used electronics to get to your spot too. So how old, long ago would that have been? You're dating yourself really good. Right. Well, it's it's I'm telling you, this is a long time ago. So, Roach, what I was telling it. He was asking us about fishing and I said no, we weren't doing very good and he goes where you've been fishing and we told him this spot, whatever we're trying to fish and he goes go out to eight miles and he goes fish on the north side of the point that sticks out on the end of eight mile. And back then there used to be these king fishing maps and you'd use a compass from where you were and you'd find that point on there and you'd go out there right and then you'd sit there and you find you don't have an APP on your phone that shows you, yeah, you have ship. Dude, this is old school. You take...

...your arms like this, you know, and do stuff like this and try tolign thing. I'm not kidding you. But but the coolest thing that he said was he goes, let me see your your your gear, your rides and reels, and Tom went over and God my brother, and we brought him to him and put him in his boat and he took him and he just started cutting ship off him just to get this stuff off. And it's the first time that I ever saw a ten foot Snell in a single hook right and a Leege and we went out there and, honest to God, it was the craziest damn thing you ever seen. It was like like literally, as far as fishing went on that body of water, life changing from that moment on. I mean he did it like just like that. Go do this, go out there right now, do this, he goes. We just left him biting and we went out there and sure, it was the craziest damn thing ever. Then almost the nicest thing I've ever heard a sportsman D on. Putting you on something and he just is doing a tournament doing right. I mean it's doing a tournament. Who Does that? You know, but that's the truth. That was roach man. I actually told that story to Alander and he goes, Oh, yeah, that's him, that's totally him, except for als, like Oh, yeah, for sure, right that, that's that's Gary. We know right there. Yep, that's funny stuff. Yeah, Gary. I actually fished Malaxe Lake with Gary too, and it was, like you said, ten, twelve, these crazy leads. Yeah, I'll never forget it. He had a court freezer bag full of number six octopus hooks and I'm like, what's that for? You? Is like because you know you're feeding these things for thirty seconds and then the hooks halfway and they're either sometimes they're in the hook and right in the beat there, but you know they're so deep you just cut them, you know, because we call like seventy fish or he got probably seventy of them, probably, but nevertheless, you know he's like yeah, we're just they're not in the slot. They're not in the slot. So you let him go and you just so you get really good at snelling and tying knots. The mud flats up there. Kind of digressing is people don't understand a certain type of mud and it's like it sinks weird it's almost like Jello. How do you how do you even describe them? One up there, you can feel the drag on your like when you have a really good rod. You can feel you can feel it. It's weird, it's it's and then, and then you want to fish as vertical as you can. So you want to try to keep your whatever you're using for weight, you know, like I like slick sticks, and you want to keep them like just feel it and then pull it up and then back into him, as I like to backtrol and then back into whatever you can to try to keep that as vertical as you could. And that was that was the game. And if you could do it, Oh yeah, you're back. I don't know what it's like. No, I haven't fish the lake for years, but it's so crazy. Now guys are doing with the called power corking. So they're using live sonar. They're seeing these fish and they're basically casting slip bobbers out and like working it, like pulling in or like to pendulum it, and so they basically can control fish bottom but then also pull it up for suspended fish and they're casting an individual fish that they mark on the live soner. No, it's nuts. Yeah, is that like that? That is it with a garment pan optics or something with side and was that what that is? You're talking about the coming bird that I have. It's called Megalive, but you know, it's it's truly you can watch the fish swim, you can see their tail. It's but you know what, I had that this ice fishing season and it was crazy to see five fish come in and and it teaches you a lot if you know what to look for. But the funny thing is Lee. I still had guys that didn't know what they were doing and it didn't help them catch no more fish. Because you still gotta do what you gotta do. You gotta Fish, you still gotta yeah, Yep, but it's crazy, from bleached jugs and lined up trees and all that good stuff, to know life's owner. But who was some other fishermen that you've been around her films or whatever that you know we're kind of saying, because I think the photographers are usually the guys. I asked because KVD was fun. Yeah, he's. He's a different he's a different animal, isn't he? Know, he's just he's a pro man, he's a pros pro. He was, he was, he was a blast. Photographed him a number of times. And well, the bass guys, the fishing guys for under armour, the pros for free bill and, mm HMM, kvd. Yeah, I mean not a lot of not a lot of fishing, but when with your KVD, because you know he's well, I don't know how to say this, but he is a different mental animal than anybody, like anybody that's fished with him or knows him or whatever, like he's on a different mental focus, like his camera guy one year at the classic,...

...that when he won. I'll forget, never forget the story where he like boom, comes in, he's got a three pounder, comes off, he doesn't even like, doesn't even record, doesn't acknowledge it, doesn't look at the camera guy, just zings that out. Next to him. A couple of casts later loses a four pounder of the boat. Turns to the camera guy and says, man, that hardly ever happens. Twice, happens again, like three any one of these fish. It's like probably gonna give him a half million dollars guaranteed. Right, me and you or somebody else would have been at least mother or something, right, like. I mean I can elly broke a rod pole or light pole or something. Anyhow, it happens three times and I just remember him. You know, the story of him turning to the camera guy and be like man, can you put three times on the day like today, like he's in the Super Bowl and he's like that. Like I have so many stories with him and just having been around him with some of the mutual company stuff, and you see where a guy he is. He literally has a different mental focus. You hear about like, you know, Tiger Woods or whatever sport you're in that, once you get the basic mechanics, you know you're on a different mental level and maybe in some aspects that's kind of where you're at with, you know, thinking just totally different than the guy next to you. M I guess I don't know what other guys are thinking, but regardless of how much is in my head or how much turmoil or anything that's going on or whatever, as soon as I get working and get down on the ground and get behind the Lens, it like it all quiets down and all goes away. And Yeah, it's pretty easy to focus for me. And I know you're more of a hunting guy, so I guess jumping into kind of more recent stuff, I mean, so plus shot shells, you're I don't know what you want to say, but you, I mean you're definitely involved with them, you're affiliated with them, or however you want to say it right. So how like you said, I mean because I get this, because I think of like my own career and just things I've got planned and the way things are going. You're just at a different point and for his involvement, but also, I mean doing some of the mentoring with some of the guys that we both know. Is that? Is that kind of part of this too? Or I don't know, I don't know about that so much, but the the boss, the boss shot shell thing. That was just I could see that when crystal clear from the moment we started it, like it is clear this is gonna work, and I think that's where, like circling back to where we were earlier in the conversation here, that is the culmination of all my life's work right there. That's it's boss. I mean I'm a bird hunter. I'm a major duck hunter. It's just I get that thing. I've been in the business long enough. My relationships are deep. Typically most times my name is, you know, really good with people. The magazine's the editor is Um big, you know, the heads of companies. So it's so you're obviously working on the branding and then the photography and then obviously some networking and some of the relationships stuff, I mean day to day stuff. Is that? You leave that for the office. Poyser? Well, Zach is there, Zack Myers there, he's Um, he does a lot there. He I think he keeps it between the white lines. For sure, that guy does. And Brandon, he's the guy that came up with the shell. He's my partner. Um. He came up with this killer Shell and he's a metal plate or a generational metal player by trade from bridgemand Michigan. Grew up in a shop, in a manufacturing shop his whole life. He's Way Blue Collar and whip smart and totally gets how to make things better and came up with the Shell and he started to hear from a number of people that you should make this is the best shell I've ever shot and he's like yeah, you think so, and so there was happened to be a few people that he asked if they knew anybody that helped could help get him that get that product to market. And he heard my name, I guess, a couple of times maybe, and then called me up and here we are, you know, like four years. I think it's about four years, three and a half for sure. Yeah, I mean and you guys obviously got some some Bass guys you're sponsoring, and it's you know, because a lot of them like that's people just don't realize, like, you know, how many, how many guys that hunt for fish or a vice versa, all of them. Yeah, I mean that's what an endorsement is, right. Well, that's I mean we are what we are, right. I mean, when you can't hunt, you go fishing. When you can't fish and go hunt something, right. I mean, I know I and I I as a kid. I used to probably do more hunting because my dad that was his deal. And I love waterfall hunting and I think...

I was telling you when we ran into each other in South Carolina where, you know, I got out with my buddy out there in the DAKOTAS and it was just like man, I really need to make more time and obviously where I live and you know my buddy down the road here is just not having enough time to do that. But you have to make it. I mean I'm just I'm at that point where I'm making some more time for that. Just not enough. MM HMM. So, yeah, so I'm like I kind of touched on I probably ran two things together there and the same thing. But like I think about this just because I have so many people now that are like hey, mentoring and this and that, and I uh, there was another guy in the bass industry that was talking about kind of from your kind of angle, videographer slash photographer, and he was like all these, all these younger guys that want to be say they want to be mentored, or I don't know if that's not the word they use right, but there they're coming at you and saying, Hey, I'm trying to find this out and find that out. And most of the guys, like the old salty guys, like kind of like us, say, you know what, you aren't dedicated, you know. So if you had people that have basically come to you or hinted at being mentor or that want to kind of learn your craft, or do you think it's a dying deal because cell phones, I mean, like this is what people think photography is anymore? I just in your mouth when I showed that to you and I don't know how to answer that one. I don't know. Yeah, I've, I've, I think I've helped whenever, whenever the young fellas or whatever, whenever anybody calls me like, I mean, I help whoever. I can tell him done. It doesn't mean they'll do it or they can do it, but you could tell them you can, you can, you can. I don't know, it's a tough one. No, I don't know. I could explain it to him, but I can't make understand it. I mean, well, I guess. Is it a shot in the bridges for you that like nowadays, people like nobody owns like I when I first started doing what I do on my element as an outdoor writer, like part time right, like, I worked for in Fisher like on stream meat eater. When I first started there again, and I'm not that old, I had to shoot slide film, like Whoa, you know. I mean that's what Infisher and magazine you had to have a slide film. But you don't get to see that and that was expensive and you know, the exposure and all that stuff. And you know, I'm no, I'm no professional photographer, but I want to be an infisher magazine, so I need to learn that. And now as you get into digital stuff, you know, with a fancy camera like you're using, and now people are almost kind of skipped over that. The people again think that this is the camera, and then they've gotten pretty damn good, even though I know you roll your eyes at that. I get but no, no, you'd be surprised. But go ahead. Yeah, I mean so is that, I guess, is that kind of a shot in the bridges where when see these people taking all these photos, and you know, I've had half page things and major magazines from my cell phone now. But is that like to you? Is that like an insult for the craft? MM HMM. Came camera and eyes and I e. Yep, yeah, Yep. That's why I'd look at it. I mean, if you have an eye, you have an eye. Right, like yesterday I had a guy, we had a giant fish and the guy had my head cut off in his finger. End Up being somehow, I don't know, on a cell phone. So if if you don't know, you don't know. I mean the phone, in all fair in all honesty, is incredible, right, like what the new ones can do there, there really are. They're incredible. So, but they have their limitations, right. I mean you can't shoot long, you can't shoot fast. I mean there's things that you can't do with them that the big cameras can do. Right. But let's say, let's say somebody's business was almost solely dependent, dependent on social media, right, like all the social channels. You I don't I don't know, like I don't know a lot of about that stuff, but I'm just saying. I'm just saying if that was the lion's share of somebody's business or personal life and that you know, as long as you're not doing things that the phone is not capable of doing it, because it can't do it yet. I mean you can shoot images and retouch them on your phone. That, quite honestly, you can't do with a big camera. And Yeah, the meters unreal on them. Now you'd go, well, that's not even true. I can't even believe you can hit a button HDR settings. And I'm telling you, if you shot something with you know when...

...the big cameras and then you go in and you know, you You Upload Film and You you upload your images and you go through a light room or camera a or whatever and you work on them. I mean, yeah, I mean that's all the big work's done, right, but I'm telling you, you could run an incredible feed from your phone. Incredible, let's say. Let's say it was let's say Your Business was food, food photography with the phone. It's outrageous. That's where it comes back to the eye, right, the angles lighting. I mean, what makes a good photography for you? What what makes a good picture? Well, that I mean there's a number of I don't know, I've only shot a couple of good ones in my life. Um, really, yeah, a couple of them. But if you if let's let's, let's say you're with a friend, under your wife or girlfriend or whatever, you're out driving around and you go through this super cool neighborhood and who's ever riding with you looks and says, Oh my God, look at that, how pretty that house is or whatever, you know, you don't. You don't go wow, that really is nice. I wonder what hammer he used or she used. Right, we have to include that too. I didn't think that's where you were going, but I give it right. So nobody goes God, I wonder what hammer they used, I wonder what saws they use, or I wonder what, you know, like an artist at an oil painting, you know, I wonder what brushes it gets, because it doesn't matter. That's not what matters. Doesn't matter what you use, it matters what you have and what you do with what you have. That's what matters. If, honestly, God, the new cameras today right are they're outrageous. They really are. They're outrageous. What they do way different than they were fifteen years ago. Do you think for a minute that I can't take my old film camera from twenty years ago and shoot a cover? If you think I can't, you're wrong. Right, it's just another hammer. I think people, young photographers especially, get way hung up on like gear. That's not it doesn't have anything to do with gear. Nothing, almost nothing. Lee. You know, one of the things I noticed from your photos they always look like they're in motion. Everything, even even someone just walking there. There's emotion aspect to it, and that goes in line with what you said. Well, I thank you for that because I um, I think the degree, even though the viewer might not understand what they're looking at, the viewer has the ability to look at something and go man, do I like that, and you go why? I don't know, I just love it. It's awesome. Right. I think the degree of difficulty matters greatly when it comes to location work. The harder the shot is to get and the better you execute it makes it better because they've never seen it like that before. Does that make sense? You can't set it up right, I mean let it up. For example, if you had a fish and you caught him blowing up on a top water or pushing it out of the water something, I mean. Or a frog, get a little real frog getting eaten by a bass, you know like that. That one in a million chants of of of having a camera there. Even if you were preparing for it, you couldn't get it. Yeah, there's one Ross, I don't know if you've seen it, where where a wave is coming over the boat. I think I saw on your instagram or your facebook, and there's actually a wave crashing over the sonar screens and he's trying to real effih it. I mean it's just an incredible shot. And that is a live target. Add I shot that for grant copper life target. So crap was on Lake Malax and that's that lake we're talking about. When relax gets rough, it gets really rough and backtrolling and just hanging in there when you're backtrolling is miserable, but the fishing can be spectacular. So how many cameras? How many cameras? You know, like I know, you love Alaska and some of that sea duck stuff where the salt is just brutal on those in your grooms. Lots, lots. It doesn't. Oh yeah, I mean I lost I lost two on an under arm or salt water fishing shoot, two in trying to shoot one photograph.

So are these like ten dollars, just bodies or they were eight? They were eight, eight thousand and so do you lose the Lens too? MM HMM. Sometimes, but I didn't. Then I didn't. I didn't that time. Sometimes I do. Producer. Dude, are you cringing right now? Yeah, well, you can see it and you just look at his photos and you know he's lost stuff. I mean, I mean, is that? You know, all the way? I look at it like Hey, I'm gonna lose Baits, I'M gonna lose hooks as part of the GIG. The differences. These cost twenty bucks in years. I asked, you know, it was under armour, and I'm like really, that's what you want? And I'm like yeah, I'm like, well, it's gonna get rough, you know, like to get what you're really after, I'M gonna have to be under the under the wave. Now, in retrospect, that okay. So I lost those two bodies on that one day. Now we're down to one. But it's not the body. It's a backup one. It's not the one I really wanted to shoot with. So it got ahold of a camera store. I believe the camera store was in Washington D C, and I bought two bodies and then hired a some kind of courier and then they brought me two new bodies and we're up by ocean city. Yeah, I was just gonna say like we were fishing outside of Ocean city, Maryland, I believe, and then you know, so we really weren't. Didn't miss any time. Weren't down that long at all. Um and in retrospect, though, I kind of I wish. I wish I would have shot at inside my underwater housing, laying down in the boat, even though you don't have the flexibility to move and speed at moving things around with the housing, but I mean, I think I could have shot it with that. So, I mean, that is funny. You know, it's probably ten years ago and I still think about that. You know, I mean, you know I, me and you haven't fished together yet, and I say yet because we're definitely gonna have to make that happen. But if you're in the boat and you're trying to explain to me or one of my buddies in there. You know, I don't say what we're doing wrong because obviously there's different things, but I think that there's just like fishing, like I can't tell somebody what they're doing wrong fishing because I may not be right myself in ten minutes. But there's still things that you can do as far as principles with fishing. Start Educating people, you know that are like rather you're fishing large mouth or Walleyes or whatever, that most people. If Kevin Van Damme saw that guy and this guy saw that guy and I saw that, we probably all say the same thing and there has to be something like that. So these people that are listening could be like, Hey, we don't have any aspirations of doing any like magazine shoots, but we also don't want our kids photos to suck and we want to capture that memory. And, like producer Dude said, you have this emotion. That's kind of your style and it's also like it's like you're capturing the story. It's like a moving story. So how how can we do that better? Not on your level. Never gonna be they're never gonna try, not gonna have the equipment. How can you be? How can you be a better how you can take better pictures? Is that what we're talking about? I mean really, there are things out there. I mean it's just gonna sound like maybe Cliche, but there's that whole thing out there that's like the rule of thirds. And I mean, and that's that's the truth. I mean like, let's see if I can do this backwards. Let's see if I do so, if I move this, if I move this, how do you do God, is that ever weird doing that into this? Okay, let's see to neither chiropractor. Are you trying to do the rule right? There no a real third. So let's say I was sitting right here and you're shooting something and you want this space out here. Right. So what this space out there? Because the eyes are going that, eyes are going that way. Right, you're leaving like maybe something. You're suggesting a larger thought that people. You leave space. White space is important. Um, another thing in photography is like would be a gross merger, and that's like you've seen a picture where something was like cut off that shouldn't be cut off, right. Yeah, well, I mean there's lots of it. Happens to lots of things, but sometimes, sometimes cropping has has a nice effect. Typically cropping comes into play when you're shooting something up close, but other things, like shooting your kids playing sports. I mean that's what like. Lots of times I get calls on that how murder their daughters taking horseback riding lessons and they want to take good pictures and they totally get that. Here's another thing about pictures.

No one takes a picture of something they don't want to remember. I think, I think the key is to take what you have, especially what you take in your phone, and print them, make make pictures from them. There's little tiny printers. You can buy their print four by six pictures and their killer. And think about this. I bet you could take just about anybody's phone and go through their phone and phone and go, Dude, you should be printing this stuff. This is gold right, because when you're out and you're with your buddies or whoever, and you take like, let's say you run into somebody's you haven't seen a while, you know, go out and you have a couple or whatever your buddies, and you know pretty soon you got your arm around each other and you're taking a Selfie and you want to send it to somebody in high school and whatever, print it right. Otherwise the ship just lives on your phone and it's gonna be electronic dust to some day. You know, just print, print to stuff. The new generation kind of freguets about that. I think the one for me that I see, you know, every day is where someone takes one photo in the boat, like we'll catch a giant wall like nine pounder, and the dudes like he's done and I'm like, Dude, turn that sideways or and they're always like looking at me like Huh Um, and even some women. That's mostly guys. I get there, but and I usually follow up with you know, hey, man, I've got I've had some pretty killer photographers that have been in my boat that have been hired by companies, you know, to go shoot me, and I'm like, I ask all these I always ask these guys questions and I tell them. I'm like, man, I've shot with some pretty Badass dudes and these guys ain't taking two shots. You know what? Producer Dude, Nathaniel Welsch, was the only one that we had on the podcast earlier who was more of a portrait guy, but he shot boom boom when he was done. But everybody else, I mean they're taking a ship pile and, you know again because they're using for other things. But I think most people don't take enough, especially now with the cameras, you know, the photos. And so another thing I would tell like people if they want to take better pictures, if you're if you're photographing a man or boy, even Um, an animal, it's best to get below them, right. So get down on the ground and shoot them. But don't shoot women like that. Don't shoot ladies like that. You gotta Shoot Trust me, they they don't understand it. Yeah, but I'm listening and trust me, they ain't gonna be happy about that. So just, Um, producer, no, don't shoot what. Don't shoot women low uh Um. You kind of want to get up like where the lens is, at least like eye level, you know, like up in their eye here. Right then it's like, because the perspective of the Lens goes like this, right. So, which for a man it's, you know, big shoulders, and that's kind of cool. It's more heroic, right, but not not not gals, you know. And then I feel like you can say so much more. I feel like you have something inside you there. Well, I mean I've made the mistake. I've made it a few times, but the rule of thirds, like when you're shooting landscapes right, either have the horizon, the horizon like on the top, the top third line or the bottom third line. And if it's a sunset, move the sunset over to one third right, a third left or a third right right, and then the same thing with the horizon line. It really it's it's it makes your it makes your images a lot more interesting when you do that. Um, not mean not all the time, but, like I say, it's kind of a rule. Oh, and that's true. And again, like kids playing sports, keep them in the frame. If they're running with they're kicking a soccer ball left to right on the field, cheat them on the left side and leave two thirds of the right side like open where they're running to Um, just like that. Producer Dude. Has This helped you? Are you going to take better photography? Oh really, producer dude? All right, yes, yes, Ross, I will now do better. I mean, I'm just saying, I'm trying to look good. Actually, can't be either. Every day. Thanks. I can't thank you enough for giving us your timely I just the only thing I can now is me and you were getting a boat at some point. Yeah, let's go wet a line, for sure, way over to fishing. I love fishing. I just know we AIN'T gonna in October, November, we ain't gonna find you. But I hear you, no, not fishing. No, YOU'RE gonna be duck out, and I already know then. Yep, thanks for having me on fig I appreciate it. You appreciate your time. But yeah, definitely we got to get in a boat sooner and later, because you know, if you don't it. Yeah, that's that's right. He shose photographer...

...to the elites in the outdoor industry, that's for sure. That's some crazy stuff. So we appreciate your time and thanks for tuning into the big water podcast. CHECK US out. BOG WATER FISHING DOT COM. Big Water on Stitcher, apple, Google. Um, what else do we got? Producer, dude modify. I should know. That's the one I listened to. spotify, facebook, instagram. Big Water fishing is what we are and what we're doing. Thanks for tuning in. Me, Russ Robertson, we are out.

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